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Interview with Kalpa Buchner (1) - Interviewed by Akampa, 2007


Akampa (A): I encountered Tibetan Pulsing in 1989 when Osho was talking about Zen in the discourses in Pune. It was the first Tibetan Pulsing Intensive that happened in the Osho commune. I did many other group works like Pulsation, Breathing, Dance, Painting and etc., but none of these caught my heart.  I knew that Tibetan Pulsing was for me and felt deeply connected with it. It was kind of feeling that I could not express with my words.

Now I would like to hear about your experience of Tibetan Pulsing and how you met Dheeraj.

Kalpa (K): When I was in Pune, I was not looking for therapies. I was more interested in meditation. At the time when Dheeraj was coming to Pune, I was working in the garden of Osho and was pretty much in my own world.

But one day a dear girlfriend showed up and said, “OK, Kalpa, there is a group happening in the White House. You should really go and do that!” I had the feeling that this girlfriend of mine would always bring a message from the Master. On several other occasions I always listened to her, because there was some kind of directions that I felt to follow. So I went.

For me it was like coming home. I had some feeling with this work which, like you, I can not express exactly what had happened. But I felt this was truly what I was looking for my whole life. It is physical thing, but yet it gets your spirit into some other dimension and takes you somewhere.

There was a strong attraction towards Dheeraj, but it was basically with his feet. I loved his feet. I was always watching his feet. After the group I wanted to have an individual session with Dheeraj but I was shy to ask and I was not an outgoing person at the time. There were so many people who wanted a session from him, so I felt for sure he would not have a time for my session. But then he came up to me and asked, “Do you want to have a session?” I could hardly reply. But I finally managed to say, “Yes”. And he said, “OK, tomorrow at 3 o’clock. He had a time kept for me.

We experienced such a deep connection, that for one week I was unable to speak. My voice was gone. After Dheeraj left his body, I had a channeling which said that had been together in many previous lives and that in this life Osho had brought us back together. When I met him for the first time, it was like being hit by thunder and lightening.

The work he had created was also strong for me. I could not make a difference between my personal connection with Dheeraj and his work. It was just overwhelming in every sense.

(A): So, before you encounter with Dheeraj, did you have some knowledge of ancient sciences?

(K): I did not have any experiences of therapies or groups because I did not feel those were attractive to me. I loved meditation. I was already a Sannyasin for 10 years when Dheeraj arrived in Pune. My first trip to India was at 18.

(A): After the first session, you and Dheeraj began the journey?

(K): Yes, it was instant. It was just like a bomb to my heart.

(A): You were very intrinsic in nature and I hardly noticed you when I was doing the group. Maybe after you got together with Dheeraj, you became more conspicuous.

(K): Before I was like a quiet flower. But Dheeraj was different. He was always talking, had so much to share, so much to express and give and a really outgoing personality. He was a charismatic character, joking, laughing, talking loud, showing off and exaggerating sometimes. I was exactly the opposite; very shy.

(A): Maybe after the Temple group, you started to change.

(K): I had to start to talk because people wanted to know things after Dheeraj lost his voice. I could somehow feel what he wanted to express. Our roles in these 10 years were like taking on the qualities of the other one. We were merging. Being with Dheeraj for me was like this. There were physically two bodies but I felt there was only one body. We were completely melting with each other. I disappeared in him.

(A): In that merging something had transmitted to you? Spiritual or intellectual transmission?

(K): Yeah. Dheeraj had the gift to pull out the qualities in a person, that was his way of working. In order to transform some old habits in ourselves, also physical , emotional  or psychological problems, he taught us to use the pulse beat, the bio-electrical force of the heart. This is Dheeraj´s transmission.

(A): This work had been under the monasteries in Tibet and it was not really revealed to outside world. That is why for some people it is difficult to grasp the essence of this work. It is not like other therapies or New Age techniques. It is working on transforming the negativity of the person. Is this correct?

(K): Yes, that is true. It enables you to relax and observe what is happening in your body and in your mind. It is a specific form of meditation, a tantric approach. You don’t need to have previous experience in meditation though.  Some people who do this for the first time and get the access to meditation though Tibetan Pulsing. Others don’t like it, mostly ’cause they don’t really want anything to change in their lives.

It is a technique that operates from the inside out. We just go inside with the pulse beat and apply the electro magnetic force to the nervous system. Then it is operating from the inside out. Other techniques like Shiatsu or Acupuncture always work from the outside in. But our work is from the inside out. So the body regenerates itself beginning from our organs or from our nervous system.

(A): Some of the general public in Japan is quite interested in the technique of Eye Reading. But most people are not into its bodywork.

(K): Really?

(A): Because they do not know what we are going to do and it is not easily explained. And we do not have many photographs of sessions to show them. People are a little bit afraid. But they do want to know about their eyes. They are quite interested in what could be read from the eyes.
(K): I feel that for Asian people, because of their traditional background of meditation and their awareness of the Hara, Tibetan Pulsing is more familiar than it is for Western people.

(A): Before reaching the depth of the work in the bodywork some people tend to experience pain. This is what they do not want to have from the session. So after the first session they drop the session because they do not want to experience the pain. They want more relaxation. However, in order to reach the depth one has to experience the pain at some point. How do you manage with this kind of situation?

(K): I must say that it does not have to be painful. It should not be painful. I feel the session giver can arrange the session in a way that it is comfortable to the one who receives. He needs to tell the session giver if something is uncomfortable.

(A): In order for the transformation to happen, we need to encounter some kind of pain as we go through the 7 steps of our personal development. Especially in the 6th phase we experience the pain in our lives. So sooner or later we have to pass through the pain.
(K): Yes, that is true. What we found out is that all of the shocks which happened to our nervous system can be released in a session of Tibetan Pulsing. But the same shock in order to dissolve will come up during the session. This could be experienced as pain. You will be under the impression as if right now you are suffering a certain pain, a certain trauma. But in fact, it is only the memory that you have kept from the shock in your nervous system which is coming to the surface and ringing the alarm. Or the same symptoms may appear although it is just the memory of them which was stored.   

The interesting thing is that you can only transform the problem if you allow it to surface. When the pain comes up, it is not that you are sick or hurt. The experience or the impression accumulated in the nervous system is coming out. This is the liberation of the pain. It is doing the opposite of the original shock. If you have a session and your tooth starts hurting, it is not the session itself that is causing the toothache. You may have had a root canal treatment some years ago and anesthetics may have covered the pain. Thus by taking out the pain, for a moment the same pain can appear again. Then we can finally let it go. So, for us it is always a good sign to experience the old pain, because then you know that the damage to the nervous system is passing out.

When we get older, we keep on collecting more and more experiences in our nervous system which are slowly slowly making it numb. The movements become more difficult. We have more and more areas of the nervous system which are cut off from our conscious perception. This creates the impression of getting older. Somehow the sessions can produce  the reversal of this process. Instead of accumulating more charges, we can get rid of them and feel younger again.

(A): Some people experience a past life in the session.

(K): This can happen. A few of Kalu Rimpoche’s disciples asked him one day, “Master, why can this man (Dheeraj) heal cancer? We have studied with you for years and still don’t have this quality. He just arrived and is already allowed to sit right next to you!”  Kalu Rimpoche said, “You see, this man here has gone to hell. If you go through hell and then come back alive, you will have the quality of healing that he has”.
They were a little upset, because Dheeraj was invited to sit with Kalu at the table and they were never given this privilege. But Kalu had recognized in Dheeraj his old friend and teacher Jamyang Wangpo Khentsy Rimpoche. The same moustache, the same voice, the same crazy person as in the previous incarnation.

(A): Just by seeing the past life, for example, watching how you have died, can transformation happen?

(K): Ah, ha. I guess the different births and deaths we experienced are probably the most shocking memories we bring with us. And they are still there, while we do not keep other memories which are less shocking. We leave them behind when we die. The strong ones however are still registered in our unconscious memory. If we release them, our whole karmic situation gets lighter. Somehow we seem to always repeat certain patterns of destructiveness or self-destructiveness.

(A): That you have brought from the past life?

(K): Yes. Then you recreate the situations. Once you see one of your deaths, you gently release the shock of that death from your system.

(A): This means just watching it?

(K): No. Basically you see every shock is present on different levels. The first level we touch is seeing it. It is the mental level. Then on another level the emotions are stored. We release it maybe in the second session or cycle. There is also a third level. This is the physical shock, physical sensation of the shock. You work layer by layer like peeling an onion.

(A): Usually in the Intensive bodywork I become totally unconscious or in the New Mind I have buzzing experiences. No memory or no scenes come up; neither visions appear. Just buzzing inside. So what is happening in my case?

(K): You are a very physical person. There are 3 layers of experience which we already described before. First is our mental perception through the eyes. Second we have the emotional or magnetic perception. Especially women can perceive emotionally with their breasts. Then there is the Hara perception or physical perception. We have our knees for this Hara or body oriented perception.

(A): Instinctive perception?

(K): Instinctive perception. Yes. Different people have a different focus. Some people perceive a lot with their mentality. Other people are amazingly perceptive with their feelings. And Asian people for example, perceive mainly from their instincts, from their knees. You told me that you have this buzzing sensation. That means that you are a person who mainly perceives primarily with a physical sensation of the body. For you it is quite important to understand that the way the session giver touches you must reach a certain depth and penetration. Your body will release its tension with this buzzing sensation which is actually what we call DC (Direct Current) electrical energy. The way of the physical release is through the bones, through the body.

(A): Some of my clients see the clips from one of their past lives. And others see colors.

(K): Yeah. Also pictures. In the beginning I saw many pictures but now when I do a session, I see shapes and things and have a feeling. I see my body from inside, see what is going on.

(A): When you are seeing these things, you are releasing something. But when you see nothing like me, you are still releasing something?

(K): It does not have to be a visual experience to release something. Maybe some memories come up.

(A): people who would like to receive a session must have some kind of meditative experiences in order to go deep?

(K): We are working with so many people and some of them have done nothing before.  They are happy to lie down and just receive or to feel the energy. Tibetan Pulsing can give you the opening to the body. All you need to receive this session is to be open for new experience.

When I gave a session to my father who is 81 years old, I always do after the lunch because he has a little nap afterwards and then he is just very receptive. When I give him the session, he falls asleep. After 45 minutes pass, he feels very refreshed. But if I give it to him after he drinks coffee or wine, it is not ideal. With a person who is new, maybe I choose a moment when he or she can relax. The session can be a bliss and joyful for everybody even for the grandparents and young children. For them it is best in the evening. 
(A): Seeing from the work you are doing, I feel very impressed with what you are presenting. You have also developed a new way. I could not attend your new group, the Tiger, but I heard from one of my friends that you have adapted the technique of Family Constellation. For another group held 3 years ago, the Dragon, you have adapted the astrology to the eye reading.

This is kind of a new era for us to synthesize a bit from this and from that. Human Design System which I am teaching synthesizes astrology, Kabalah, Chakra System and I’Ching. From the work of Dheeraj you have some knowledge of how to apply the eye reading to the I’Ching. So from your experiences out of synthesizing all these aspects of ancient knowledge comes something greater.

(K): Yeah. The funny thing is that I have no experience or training in Family Constellation. I basically didn’t know anything about how it works. Only that it is a powerful and efficient process. It was Chitta who brought in his understanding of supervision and also of his Primal experience from the past.

(A): Chitta did the training of Family Constellation, did not he?

(K): That’s right. Chitta did a 2 year school for social worker over several week-end courses. Here he was introduced to Family Constellation and Supervision by a friend of Hellinger, who was the director of the school in Switzerland.

The work of “The Tiger” goes back to what Dheeraj was teaching. He explained that there were two organs composing each star sign. There is a duality in each sign. One is representing the active principle, the other one the receptive principle.
(A): That is like Yin and Yang.

(K): Yes. Yin and Yang in each star signs. So, for example, for Taurus, we have Spleen as the active and Stomach as the receptive. There are two organs for all the different signs in the Zodiac. And he always told me that one day we would do our work with Astrology. Somehow this got stuck in my…….

(A): Psyche?

(K): Yeah. Shortly after Dheeraj left body, a friend of mine did a portrait of Dheeraj. When I came to see the portrait for the first time, he put it on the wall and in the night I came down and sat in front of the portrait. I felt like it was talking to me. There I got a transmission of the work that was going to happen or which I could develop and I saw the different aspects of it.

Later I understood that it was about the different components of The Dragon and The Tiger. One is about the planets and the other about the Zodiac. The Dragon happened 3 years ago and The Tiger finally this summer. It worked out beautifully. We were using the Planetary Constellation to bring the person closer to their deeper wounds. We could also see them in the eye. It was surprisingly strong and everybody felt the improvement to the Pulsing work.

Because in the Pulsing we had always been doing the body work and somehow allowed the transformation to happen through it but we had never actively confronted different wounds in the sense of expression. What people appreciated about the Tiger was that there was a space which was allowing also this aspect: to come in confrontation with yourself. This has been happening in our process.

Yeah, it looks like our work has been growing. Dheeraj said, “Never mix different processes”. I want to make it clear that I had no experience in Family Constellation and we did not intend to do that. It was naturally coming forth from putting up the eye together with the astrological chart and actively including everybody in the group into the chart. Then Chitta could apply his previous experience.

(A): In the Family Constellation people start to move or express something spontaneously what they have felt in their role.

(K): Yes. It is very surprising. And it is going deep also, because it is not only the situation of our family, but it is all about our soul: how we communicate with the planets, the Sun and the Moon. It is about our universal perception.

(A): What about the I’Ching?

(K): The I’Ching? Dheeraj was figuring out which organ goes with which hexagram.

(A): And the lines.

(K): Yes, everything. He explained the whole thing. But when I started working on it, I felt that it is not going together with this Tiger work. Maybe I will bring it out in another context. For “The Tiger” Dheeraj left us a beautiful text he once channeled a long time ago.

At the time in Pune, Dheeraj showed it to a Japanese Sannyasin who was translating Osho´s books into Japanese. The man said, “This is Shakyamuni Buddha’s translation. Where did you get this translation?” And Dheeraj said, “No. I was channeling these. These are my words”. And the Japanese Sannyasin said, “No, no, no, no. You have written down the translation of Shakyamuni Buddha”.

When you read it, you will agree, because each paragraph is like a poem. Each of these poems which exists for every single space of our consciousness is like a Zen Koan. The message goes deep and it sounds very beautiful. What I discovered is that it fits exactly to the degrees in the zodiac. Every star sign is divided into 30 degrees.

For example, Taurus and Capricorn are 30 degrees apart and it is possible to figure out which of the Koans Dheeraj was channeling goes with your birthday. For example, you were born the 30th of April. So for that day, there is a specific poem or Koan written down by Dheeraj. Actually it is coming from Buddha.  

At the end of the group we gave the Koan of their birthday to all the participants in the group. They were deeply touched, because it was for each person a specific and fitting message. That can be applied to different situations. If, for example, your Uranus is in a difficult position or transit, you can read the poem for that specific issue. It can be like a mind-blowing Koan. Like a Zen Koan, it gives you a deep insight into your suffering and you can jump out of it.

(A): Just by reading it?

(K): Just by reading it. Yeah. Like pure gold.

(A): Dheeraj talked about Taoist Patriarch, Ni Hua Ching. He was the first Chinese Master to translate the I’Ching from Chinese to English.

(A): I also have his book, called “Book of Change”. In that book, there is a chart which shows hexagram in a wheel. It is the exact same sequence as the mandala of the Human Design System. But his wheel does not have the astrological houses and the hexagrams are in exactly the same sequence. You see, there are certain patterns operating inside the wheel. And the hexagram structure is exactly the reverse of the one in opposition. There are other certain patterns operating within the wheel.

(K): I saw that in the book. I did not work so far on the connection between the Tibetan chart and the one of Master Ni. What I understand from the organs is:

The Unison, the Mind, the Heart and the Hara can be connected to the 6 different lines for each hexagram of the I’Ching. They go all with a certain aspect in our consciousness. This is what Dheeraj found out but we did not use it for “The Tiger”.

(A): If you synthesize all these aspects, you may find something more interesting.

(K): I hope so. We have completed the work of “The Tiger” and next year we will do “The Dragon” again. With the Planetary Constellation it will be far more interesting. But Chitta is already telling me, “Don’t worry. There’s gonna be one more group where the Tiger and the Dragon are connecting. To me this one not arrived yet. Chitta said, “You wait. It’s not the last one. There will be another one to come”. I am open for new adventure because for me the worst thing is to get bored. I don’t enjoy so much doing the same thing over and over again. I always find new things to do.

(A): You teach the Intensive Part 3 which is about the movies.

(K): This is my favorite thing. I love the films. Unfortunately, today most of the films are very commercial and not so deep, often even without transformation in the end. Lately there are many films coming out with less quality. The interesting part about watching movies is that films follow exactly a certain sequence which we are experiencing in our dream state.

In the dream state, we are releasing our different organs from experiences that we had in the day time. So the electrical charges that are accumulating in those organs are released at night through the dream. The sequence just follows the vertebrae of the spine, each one of which belongs to a certain organ. Wherever there is strong electrical charge left from the day time, the nightmare or whatever pictures from dramatic experiences might appear.

Every film starts with a certain frequency of a particular organ. We can say, this film is teaching us about the Heart. Or this one is teaching us about the Kidneys. It just follows the same sequence that we experience in the dream state and goes through all the organs of the body. That’s why watching a movie is so entertaining: because it leads us into our internal state of consciousness, as if we were dreaming. We have the same internal sensation like in the dream. The dream state cleanses our organs. You can be completely cleansed by a good film in the same way. A good film can do the same job for your nervous system.  

(A): So, in one movie, you see the whole organs operating. There is also a theme of the movie.

(K): That is the main organ. That’s why we say this film is about the Kidneys or this one is about the Lungs. In a Lungs movie we maybe feel a lot of pressure. Suspense movies are often in the Adrenal frequency. There is a lot of adrenaline moving. A nice romance is probably about the Stomach or let's say with the main frequency of the Stomach. This can help us like a session. Good films can go deep if we are able to relax into the frequency.

(A): Usually in the dream state or what we call the REM state of sleep all the brain waves are present.

(K): Yeah, it is recognized by the movement of the eyes.

(A): I experienced during the session people’s eyes also moved very rapidly.

(K): It is the same REM state. We go into a deep relaxation during the session and sometimes we also go to sleep. It depends on you whether you are able to remain alert and observing or you are just going into the unconscious. Basically Tibetan Dream Yoga or any form of meditation is oriented towards the observer. Even as the body goes to sleep, we shall remain present as a Watcher.

This is specifically the work of the Intensive 3. We are learning to stay present even when we are sleeping or when we are in the session instead of just knocking out. But a session is working as well if you are sleeping or going away very deep. You don’t need to worry that the session is not working even if you fall asleep. However, the more we get trained in meditation and observing during the session, the more we can remain awake.

(A): From my understanding that dream state is the most important state of our consciousness because without in that state we can not unify or integrate information that we have brought from the archetypal layers and also from the waking state. So, all these different kind of brain waves are operating in the dream state. That is what we call the spiritual dimension.

(K): Yeah. All Tibetan Buddhism or any meditation practice is focusing on this part of our consciousness because we can become aware and also do things during the dreaming.  We become aware of what we do in this dream and we can correct ourselves. For example, we have some self-destructiveness or violence and it’s acted out in the dream. If we are conscious of it, we can take something back. We can, as a watcher, stop ourselves in the dream and correct something.

I remember Dheeraj was always doing that in the dream state. He would consciously go to sleep and he did half of his work while sleeping. He had some problems with people. When he woke up, he had already solved it because somebody he had strong conflicts with or somebody he felt he couldn’t trust, he could meet him in the dream and just do what he had to do with the person in the dream. Thus he was somehow busy also at night, because some things can not be addressed directly. Some things are so deep that it is not possible to resolve them verbally. But on the level of the dream he was really active at night. I know, because he was sometimes tossing and turning in the bed.

(A): Like me.

(K): You are both Pancreas people working even at night!

(A): One of the participants told me her experience with Dheeraj. She told me that when she was deciding whether to come here or not, Dheeraj appeared in her dream.

(K): Yeah, she told me, too. That’s how it goes. Another level of perception. He left his body but it does not mean he’s gone. He is present in his work and what we are doing. His spirit is really there and I always feel that he’s helping me. Especially if I don’t know something, I don’t decide. I just wait. And somehow he’s helping me find the direction. The same way it is working with Osho.

(A): One time I shared the group with one of my psychic friends and he said, “Look at the ceiling. This room is full of spirits. Faces, faces, faces and faces. Full of faces”. So, the group energy draws spirits. Osho often comes to my work, too.

(K): Yes, this is true. They are all there when you are doing the work. All of your guides are present with you. Especially Dheeraj, Osho and Asanga.

(A): Which Asanga?

(K): Asanga who left the body two years ago. He came to Japan many times because he had the level of understanding that the Japanese Sannyasins really appreciated. He went straight to the point. He was very close with us. I always feel his presence somehow. When they get enlightened, they don’t really go. They keep doing their same tricks.

If you pay attention, his energy is still operating, maybe through other people. Suddenly mangos are arriving and he was the one who always brought the mangos. In India he was giving us mangos, even living in Switzerland he was coming up with fresh Mangos. It is the working without the body and through the heart connection. That way we can be with the Master.

(A): You seem to channel the information during the group especially when you read the eyes. 

(K): I think it is nothing special. When you are open, then the person whom you are working with gives you the psychic input. Then the things are coming. It’s not something that I can plan. Later I forget what I have said because it is not something of the Mind. It is something coming out from No Mind. Dheeraj was working like this all the time. Working in Zero or No Mind. The process of New Mind came through him in this state.

(A): I noticed from many group leaders doing the eye reading that eye reading is not something technical like the one written in the red book. But it is very simple. They are talking about only the simple things. It is not really going into detail. I think it is important to read eyes in a simple way.

(K): It is because the person does not need knowledge. The eyereading is an intimate process. We are looking at some blind spots we have in our consciousness. Some area is unconscious or can not see. We all have it. But we are the only one who can not see. Everybody else sees it and is laughing because it is so obvious. It is like wearing a blind fold on that spot.
For me the easy way is to play with the person, because mostly the shock happened when we were very small. You can help the person to see the moment of the shock or the suffering. It is nothing intellectual. It is very human and very direct.

(A): So, you do not need to have very detailed information?

(K): The information is there. When you have the information, you just play. The important thing for the eye reading is to feel and to learn from the person. And let your intuition work. It is not knowledge, but intuition that brings out the light.

(A): Some people in Japan are very interested in learning the eye reading. But they never have any idea how we learn like in here in the Intensive. They think it is a very technical thing but I find it is more coming from experience.

(K): It is only from experience. That’s right. It is not something you can learn from a book. It is a practical experience where you go yourself through the process. Then you develop compassion, learn to feel it in the other person. You can feel their wounds and trigger something which makes them aware of those wounds and then let them go.

In the Intensive we see people come from all over the world. So you don’t only learn about your own cultural situation. Other countries’ social conditionings are completely different. You develop a very good taste of all the different nationalities and cultures, what different markings in the eyes signify and what the similarities and differences between the Western people and the Eastern people are like. Eastern people’s conditionings are different from the ones of the Western people.

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